Behind The Curtain

Behind the Curtain with Emilio Rodriguez: Funding, Challenges, and Future

• Rosanita Ratcliff • Season 1 • Episode 2

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In part two of our conversation with Emilio Rodriguez, founder of Detroit's Black and Brown Theatre, we dive into the world of BIPOC theatre. Emilio offers an insightful look at the financial realities and operational complexities of running a theatre that champions diverse voices.

Listen in as Emilio explores:

  • The juggling act of securing funding through grants, community support, and individual donations, while navigating the high costs of theatre productions.
  • The unique challenges and considerations of working with both non-union and union actors within BIPOC theatre.
  • How classic stories can be adapted for contemporary audiences, fostering inclusivity and representation.
  • Black and Brown Theatre's commitment to the community, extending beyond the stage through workshops and projects.
  • What his younger self would think of his achievements, and the importance of self-care for artists.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in BIPOC theatre, theatre operations, or the power of artistic expression in building a vibrant community.

Find the Black and Brown Theatre online!


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Rosanita:

Welcome back to behind the curtain. Today, we're thrilled to bring you part two of our conversation with Emilio Rodriguez. The founder of black and brown theater. In this episode, Emilio takes us deeper into the behind the scenes world of theater funding the real costs of putting on a show, and the unique challenges BIPOC theaters face. We'll also hear about some creative community projects and how Emilio and his team are making theater accessible to everyone. If you enjoyed part one, you're going to love what's coming up. Emilio. You previously. Touched a little bit on funding, right? Since you mentioned the library, the Ann Arbor community foundation, how exactly is the black and brown theater funded? Is it donations? Is it ticket sales? Is it? Foundation money, a mixture.

Emilio:

Yes, it is a mixture of, of sources. A lot of it is community foundation or different foundation fundings and different grants. And then some of it is also other projects that we do. We also do like character pop up projects, which are, you know, Are great because they're not tied to any grant and they don't require any report and we just get to go have fun and show up in character at different parties and events. And and then the last 1 is donations. So individual donations from individual givers and. So yeah, we typically actually don't do a lot of ticket sales. The number of shows that have been ticketed have been very limited. We try and make as many of our shows as possible free and open to the public. But that means sometimes people don't understand just because the show is free, it doesn't mean no one got paid. There was still money that we had to get from either community foundation or, or through a different grant source, or sometimes an individual donor, or sometimes like the Michigan theater, they paid. For all of the actors and for that show to be possible. And, and they had donations themselves that heavily subsidized the ticket price for those performances. So yeah, ticket prices, even when shows are ticketed ticket prices do not cover the costs. Theater is incredibly expensive to make, but that's why it's, it's so great to have a variety of grants and, and foundations in the area that can help subsidize. the costs of how incredibly expensive theater is.

Rosanita:

How expensive is theater?

Emilio:

Oh my gosh, theater depends on, on, because a lot of the pricing can be based on, especially with non union. It can just be based on the company, what the company decides. So companies here can just decide this is how much we're going to pay an actor. The thing that sometimes people don't realize is. That has to be multiplied. So I remember one time I told, just to give you an example number, one of the film projects we did had a 25, 000 budget. And one of the actors was like 25, 000. Well, that's a lot of money. I didn't know you were spending all this money on it. And. I was like, all right, let me think about it this way. You're getting paid 1000, but everyone else that they've had in this project is also getting paid that amount too, because we are fair and equitable organization. So times that by the number of people who are in this room right now, And then there are people who are not in this room right now that have to get paid and then turn around behind you. There is a giant set behind you that was built up and look down on yourself. You're not wearing your own clothes. You're wearing a costume that someone either had to make or buy and look up. Yes, those are lights, which means someone had to program our lights. Turn to your left. There is a camera right there. This project is being filmed. That's why we're getting the funding. But that person who's filming right now, that person has to be paid and they have to get paid to edit it as well too, because it's not going to be fully, you know, in, in the condition that needs to be, they have to edit it and make it what we want it to look like for the final project. And then there's somebody you're not even seeing right now. Who's making the music that is going to go in between all the songs and the opening credit, the closing credit. So there's so, there's just so many people involved and for each person to make, to make it worth their time, each person has to get some amount of money. So the long answer is that,

Rosanita:

oh

Emilio:

yeah. And the venue as well too, because we ran out a lot of venues because we don't, we don't have a permanent venue. So even things like that, and is there someone from the venue has to be in the venue? But yeah, the insurance. Yes, so many, so many costs. And the, and the truth is that everyone can sort of set their own prices, right? Everyone, if it's a non union organization, they can decide how much they're going to pay each actor and each artist and each designer. But even if they pay them a small amount, just by the sheer number of people that are involved in a project makes theater so much more expensive than people think. We actually had one person asked me, they were like, can you do, so how much does the show cost? Like, you know, like a hundred bucks. And I was like, I wish a show cost a hundred bucks because it would be so nice if that's all it took. We'd be able to do so much more, but, but because there's so many artists that we want their time to be respected as well, too, because if you have 10 people working on a project and a hundred bucks divided by 10 people, everyone would be getting 10 bucks, which would be a lot to, to ask of people of their time.

Rosanita:

You, you mentioned non union a couple of times.

Emilio:

Yes.

Rosanita:

Now. Know that there's like it was an actor's equity and then you have like the writer's guild and then you have of course the union for people who who do lighting and other. Crew member jobs, but is it even possible for a smaller theater to be able to pay the, the union wages or how can you get your cast and your crew into the union? Is there a certain amount of union plays or performances they have to do each year the same way they do for the screen actors guild or is it different?

Emilio:

The rules have actually changed. So it used to be to join actors, equity association, you had to go through a program called EMC, which is equity membership candidate. And you would basically what you were saying, you would work at several equity theaters, a, a theaters, and that's how you would get points. And you would get one point. per week. So if you rehearse for four weeks and then you did four weeks of shows you would get eight points and you needed 50 points was the old process to become eligible to apply for equity to be a union actor.

Rosanita:

Equitable when I think of the lack of funding that BIPOC theaters or even a rural theater. Sorry to interject.

Emilio:

No, no, that's a great point. And that's why actually because of COVID, so many actors had dropped out of actors equity because you had to pay an annual fee to be a part of equity. And so many people said, well, if all the theaters are closed, Why am I paying a fee? We don't know how long this is going on. So they changed their rules. And now you don't have to have the 50 points. You just have to demonstrate that you have made a significant contribution acting and have significant experience, which in some ways, I feel like that's harder because that's even more opinion. But like, how do you prove it

Rosanita:

significant?

Emilio:

Yeah, what is significant, at least before the system, like the rules are clear and fair, even though they were really hard, it was the same for everyone, which was kind of nice. But this now is just kind of like, try and apply and you'll see if you get a yes or no. So I don't know if they're going to change those rules and go back to their old model, or maybe create a new model that's still the same rules for everyone, but maybe a little bit easier, or maybe it can change by region. Because, as you mentioned, certain regions might not have the same opportunities to do. If you're in New York, you might have the opportunity to work with an equity company every week. If you're in Michigan, where there's only, you know, 4 or 5 equity companies and there's only so many amount of shows every year then you don't have the same opportunity to easily accumulate 50 points or 50 weeks of experience.

Rosanita:

And if someone isn't at actor's equity, then there's a base rate of pay, right? And then is it the same too, where you also you're paying a due, but then you would get like health insurance.

Emilio:

Sometimes we can do what's called a guest artist, even though we're a non union company, non union companies can apply to have a guest artist. I think it's limited to one or two per show. So we did have one for, for one of our performances. And you have to. Pay so you have to pay their salary based on the equity fees. You have to pay their taxes and you have to pay their health insurance and then you have to pay it to you. Can't pay it yourself. You have to pay a licensed agency that they approve and then you pay the fee to the agency too because they have to get paid for doing all this work. So they get paid. You know, an additional 20 percent or whatnot on top of all that. And then all of those fees are paid to the agency. And then the agency pays the actor directly. So that's one of the reasons why it's so hard to book a guest artist and why so many people in Michigan are sometimes afraid to go join the union is because it's not that it, that you can't work for a non union company is that it's a lot of work for the non union company to get you approved and they have to have in their budget. enough funding to cover the cost of a union actor because a non union company can just say theoretically to an actor, we'll give you 250 bucks to, you know, do four weeks of rehearsal, four weeks of shows. And I have been on that acting end here. And, and at that time I was just happy to work. Obviously it wasn't doing it for the money. I was working as a teacher and had that. Salary and income separate. So I wasn't doing it for the money, but I was doing it for the love of, of theater, but then a union protection says, Oh no, in the state of Michigan, the minimum is like, let's say, you know, depending on a small audience, the minimum is like 350 a week is what they have to make for rehearsals and for the show. And so that's what they would have to be paid per week. Plus you would pay the taxes on that. And then you would pay the health insurance rate on that. And then you'd pay the 20 percent agent fee on top of that. Yeah. So, yeah, that would, it would be a big number that you would have to have. So you'd either have to go on ticket sales and guarantee that you're going to sell that many tickets or have the funding in place in advance. In our case, we were doing a free show. So we had the funding in place that we knew were going to be able to afford it, but we wouldn't have been able to afford it for all four actors and we wouldn't have gotten approved for all four actors, but we were approved for, for one actor. And we had the funding to do that.

Rosanita:

And that's just on the actor part, right? So then there's something separate for the screenplay writers and then there's a separate union. Like, if you're a costume designer versus lighting versus set design. Right?

Emilio:

Yes, I believe it's is the. So everyone in design and production, they're in crew, they're all in IATSE, and then stage managers are actually a part of actors equity. So actors and stage managers are together in the same union, directors and choreographers have their own union. And then playwrights, we typically use the dramatist guild. So it's not actually a union, but it is a guild that does Sort of give you some protections and they like, so I'm part of the dramatist guild and there are certain things like they will help you negotiate a contract or they'll send you a contract template so that you can make sure that you're getting paid by the standards of what other professional playwrights are getting paid or other playwrights who are on the Your experience level are getting paid for this amount of work that they're doing. And so there's certain things they'll negotiate, like typically a standard will be, let's say, depending on the size of the company, it can be like a small organization can be a minimum of like 500 to do your script plus 8 percent of the ticket sales. And then a larger organization might be like 4, 000 to do your script plus 8 percent or 10 percent of the ticket sales. And then the, the union contract will, they'll give you templates that say like, these are the dates they have to pay you by. And then some, Another really important thing for playwrights is they cannot change a single word of your text. They can cross out stage directions, but if you write down that the actor says, I'm going to be late for work today. They cannot say, Oh, I don't like that. Just say, I'm going to be late or running late. They can't change that. They have to say exactly. I'm going to be late for work today. Every single word, or the, the organization, you can pull the play. If they're not doing that, if they're changing words, which I did have 1 organization,

Rosanita:

you still get paid if they, if they change the words and then you pull your script, you still get the full. The contracted amount.

Emilio:

It depends on what your contract says. And that's why you really want to go through the dramatist guild, because they will give you a template contract that'll have an answer, yes or no answer to that, and sometimes it'll be that you get the first half of the money. So like let's say it's for a contract for 4, 000, the first 2000, then maybe you'll get that, but you won't get the second 2000, because that might have been depending on ticket sales or season. Underwriters who were counting on that script to be produced. So that's why those things had to be looked at in the contract first. And for me, when it happened to me, I decided not to pull because I didn't know until opening night and the actors were so excited for the project. But yeah, it definitely taught me to be very clear in that writing and to now I have a check in date when I'm doing projects outside of black and brown theater with myself as Emilio Rodriguez. I'm able to check in before tech week to make sure that all of the words are said as written.

Rosanita:

I'm thinking about how much a production costs if it's a union production, right? Because we are the state of Michigan, you know, we were the union state car industry, you know, my parents, my mom, a school, social worker. My dad was a union negotiator for the district on behalf of the teachers. And so. It is a topic that I find very interesting and close to my heart, especially since back in the day, unions were how people were able to become middle class. Right? And. Even when we have the great migration from down south to, you know, the Midwest, it was because of union jobs. And when I look at, you know, certain industries like theater, and I think when you were talking the rate of pay, be like, we're missing. It feels like we're still miss out in in that particular industry. On being able to join the union, because of the stipulations of how you can even join, but then also where the jobs that we're able to get the roles that we're able to get along with if you're working a theater and if you're in a rural area, because we do live in rural areas as well. It's that it feels like we're still kind of left out of that particular opportunity there. And I'm also talking about the theaters, because I don't know, I just, I, I had assumption that a theater is like, I don't want union workers, you know, I, I feel like theater is such a close knit community that you would want the best for, for each other. And I mean, if you can afford a union production, that. It is doing quite well financially, right? And so, since you started your theater company, has there been a more positive change in the funding for the theater for by park theaters in in that funding landscape? Well, when it comes from grant money, when it comes from, not just from foundations, but also from right? Because the states have the different councils. You have the National Endowment for the arts. And I remember reading an article where a representative from the Michigan Arts Council said, well, we just need more people, you know, I'm paraphrasing, but we just need more people to apply as grant readers. But then I also think. How many of us even know how to apply to be a grant reader or where to go to become a grant reader? And it's just doesn't seem as simple as as that. I don't exactly know what question I'm asking, but

Emilio:

no. There's a lot of great things that you brought up. First, let me touch on the grant reader because that's such an interesting thing that you, you brought up. And it's something that I have eventually become a, I was a grant reader for MCACA for, for one round of things. The only reason I was able to do it was I was working at a different nonprofit for my full time day job. They allowed me to have the day off. To go do this because you have to be in in that time. It was like 2018. We had to be in person for a whole work day and we had to drive up to Lansing to do. Yeah,

Rosanita:

it for the 21st century learning center funds. Yes, I think that might have been 2015 2014 2015 somewhere around there. Yeah, we had two days in Lansing that that we had to do. And it is, and I only found out about it because I was subscribed to some obscure email list.

Emilio:

Yes. Yeah. And I found out about it through the nonprofit I was working for and no one wanted to do it. So they said, Abelio, do you want to take a day off and go and do this? So it wasn't even something that I was asked to do. The nonprofit I worked for, they were asked to send someone over. So yeah, there is definitely. Especially for grant readers, it's like based off of who they know. And then if you even know the grants that you can go and ask people, then you have to decide for yourself, can I go to Lansing or can I go to wherever they're going to make this decision? Can I take a full day off of work for whatever they're paying? Because sometimes it's like, you know, they'll give you a hundred bucks or 75 bucks or whatever. And that might not be enough in comparison to what you're making in order to take a day off of work. And Yeah. And then sometimes you have a very limited amount of time to read a whole bunch of material. You usually have to come with that prepared, and the day that you're coming in is just to talk about it. It's not to read that. So you're, sometimes they're, they're like, oh, well we're paying you a hundred bucks to for a day. It's like, well, it's not actually a day, because I, to spend two days reading all of these submissions and going through all my notes that I could come prepared to the meeting. So that's another thing is the equity. Is it fair for people? To even be a part of this, or is it designed for people who live in that community, which what is the racial makeup of that community and for people who are maybe retired or are not engaging with what's new and being created right now? They're just used to what they're used to in their community. And so you really have to have an excellent pitch on your grant because they're not going to know about you versus other people. Another organization in their area might have not as strong of a pitch, but they were able to see that show because they live in that community or they have friends that they're connected with. And they're saying, that's actually what happened to me on the, on the panel. I was in someone was able to defend one of the organizations. And I said, are we going based off of the grant? Are we going based off of what you all know about the organization? Because that's 2 different things. And that's where bias comes into play because that person liked that organization and they were bringing up things that weren't in the actual grant. Another thing you touched on was union and non union. And so yeah, one of the things with non union in an ideal world, we'd be able to hire as many union artists as possible, but I think it's one to two is the limit. I could be wrong on that. Someone Google it and correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it was one to two is when, when we were doing it, maybe it's just based on the size of the company. So that's all we were allowed to have.

Rosanita:

Is that because you weren't? One of the designated theaters. Like, if you were one of the theaters that was designated by actors equity, then would you be able to have as many as you wanted?

Emilio:

Correct? Yes. So, yeah, it's just the non union theaters that have a limit of how many guests artists they can have. And then that's another thing to think about too with funding and who's able to even afford union actors is a lot of times. It is based not only just on the funding source, but also on individual donors, because if you know the right individual donors, they can give you more than a foundation can give you. A foundation usually caps around their biggest grants are around like, typically for theater, it can be like 100, 000 is like a big grant for a foundation. And you can have a individual donor easily drop 100, 000 without thinking about it. If you know the right people. Versus other companies, smaller companies don't know anyone who has 100, 000 to drop like it's Tuesday, right? But those bigger companies know those people and so a lot of times the bigger companies are able to survive because they know the people who have that money and they're able to bring in people who have that money and will throw that money and can write that check. Without even thinking about it versus a lot, a lot of smaller organizations are asking their friends and family and people around them. Can you give 50 bucks on my Facebook, you know, birthday fundraiser and another organizations like Facebook birthday funder. I'm just going to call it my friend, Tom, and he's going to write a check for 200, 000. And then I'll get all the actors I need. So that, that inequity is, is something that's hard to think about too, because then it's Who knows these people? How do they know these people? Why do they know these people? All of those things come into play.

Rosanita:

Have you seen a change though since you first started with BIPOC theaters being able to access more funding either through, you know, a friend named Tom or a patron who's on plan was like, wow, that's fantastic. Here's 250, 000 or even like, you know, COVID relief funds, which. Was not plentiful enough in my mind for the arts, and I know it came a lot later to overall. Have you noticed a change in the 7 years?

Emilio:

Yes, I would say definitely. I think there are some great organizations like CultureSource. I think it's doing a really great job of specifically making that a requirement and they're looking at things like, what does your board look like if your board does not reflect your community? That's something we don't want to consider. And they're thinking not only about race, but also about disabilities and LGBTQ. They're looking at all those things when they're thinking about who is on your board and that plays into their funding decisions. The thing about that, that was a culture source is a regranting organization. So they have a cap on what they're able to give versus some other foundations that have larger funding that they're able to give are still sort of making that change and one thing that I love too, again, about culture sources, they're not thinking about how much an organization. Is able to make, versus some larger foundations are saying they are making cutoffs by saying the organization has to have a million dollar per million dollar operating budget. And some of us are thinking, well, we had a million dollar operating budget. I don't know if we need your help, but if we have, we had a way to get a million dollars, I, we wouldn't need to apply for this grant. So that's some of the challenges too that I'm, I'm still seeing, but I'm loving that there are some smaller organizations who are saying. Wait, people don't need to have a million dollars. If they're applying for a 10, 000 grant, that doesn't line up. That doesn't make sense. And also another thing culture source did that I really loved is they're thinking about how much time you're asking people to put in a grant. Because sometimes some organizations will want, you know, five, six, seven pages for a grant and all of this research and audit and all of these things, and then culture source is like, why don't we just give them a Google form? And just tell us about your organization, throw on some video clips. And I think that's so much more equitable and reasonable to ask an organization to do, especially they're applying for 5, 000 to ask for 10 pages of work for 5, 000. We had to look at who has the capacity to have someone on their staff, write 10 pages. And the honest answer of someone who has the capacity to have someone on their staff, write 10 pages for a 5, 000 grant. It's going to be a million dollar organization because that means they have a full time grant person, or they might even have a grant intern for their grant writing person who can, Oh, we'll give this to the grant intern. They'll give them the 5, 000 grant. But then you have organizations that don't have that capacity and don't have that many people on their team. And they have to make a decision. Can I really spend the next two days writing this? 10 page grant that I might not get, and it's only 5, 000. And so a lot of times, yes, you don't see as many smaller organizations or BIPOC organizations applying because they have to make that tough choice. Is it really worth our time to gamble to make 5, 000 to write these 10 pages? Or is it a better time for us to just. Try and go to some networking events and see if we can meet five individual donors who will give us a thousand dollars each. And that'll be the same result with less work.

Rosanita:

Yeah, the latter sounds more doable as a BIPOC organization, because I'm like. You know, like, 10 pages, I'm thinking how long it took me to, like, write a 10 page paper in college. Right. And just for 1 grant, because you can't do a cookie cutter grant application either, because funders know each other. Grant readers know each other. Exactly. Or you could have had a grant reader from 1 organization. A grant reader for the next organization. And they're like, I know this one getting off of the heavier subject there. You're at interlocking right now. Is that for something special?

Emilio:

Yes. I'm a guest artist. So I am working with the high school students and we are doing an adaptation of the frog Prince, but set in a Caribbean, a fictional Caribbean Island. And so it has been so wonderful to get to work with the students because Everything else in their, their season right now is things that they're used to and things that they have experienced and, and things that are, are typically at a, a theater training institution, but because our story is set in a fictional Caribbean island, we are learning about things like social dance, which some students have not got to do in their whole four years in this program, but maybe they grew up with that, you know, especially BIPOC students, right? They're like, yeah. Social dance. Yeah, I know what that is. So they, they're able to express that talent that they maybe didn't even realize was a talent because you don't get to use social dance all the time. If you're doing a Shakespeare show or, you know, a Greek tragedy, but if you're doing a show set on a fictional Caribbean island, bring out that social dance, that is essential. skill that you have that makes the, it's fun for the audience to watch. It makes people feel connected. And you know, especially in a lot of black and Latino communities, social dances is what we do every Saturday. We go to somebody's party and there's social dance being played. And so audience members can connect with that. And then people who don't know that world, maybe, you know, more European audiences or people who just didn't grow up with that, They get to learn about something like, Oh, that's, that seems really cool. That's really fun. Oh, I didn't think about social dance as being such an an important element to, to building community and to telling a story and social dance is the only element, there's still like a full plot and everything, but there's some social dance elements that have been. Really fun to play with and for and for students to think about. I don't think they've ever thought about that as a warm up because it's a part of our warm up. And that's something that I've been thinking about with our own company. And when I go to other companies as well, I like to challenge what has been the norm for a theater warm up. There are some standard stuff that people do standard tongue twisters, other standard, you know, body rolls and things that everyone does. And something that we've been playing with and that I've been using with these students too is who gets to decide what is a useful and beneficial warm up and what are their measurements for deciding that. Because if your parameter is that a physical warm up needs to engage every part of your Well, guess what? Salsa dancing is engaging every part of your core has to be straight. Your back has to be straight, fully engage your shoulders, but don't move them too much. And your hands have to be able to move lightly and your feet have to, you know, move side to side and front to back and your face can't be dead. Nobody dances salsa dance with a dead ghost face, right? You have to, you know, fully live it. And there's also some voice being thrown in too, because you're, you're saying things, you're chanting things when you're so, you know, so it's a full warmup that you're doing that is. It's really great for actors and engages every part of their body. It's checking in with every part of their body. It's using their voice. It's using their face and you're playing off of other people because you don't typically salsa dance by yourself. You're dancing with other people and then you have to adjust with your partner. Someone leads, someone follows, and when you're salsa dancing, you're not saying, okay, and I'm going to lead and you're going to, it's something you naturally organically find between the two people. It's natural and you just have to. Listen without saying anything. And so salsa dancing is one of the warmups we do here in Interlochen, which has been really fun. Even I've only been here three weeks, but even in the three weeks, the students have grown from day one. Wallflowers being like, I'm a musical theater kid. I don't know how to do this rhythm. So now they're like, okay, I'm starting to get it. Oh, okay. You can't, you can't think about it the same way that you do a musical theater dance of five, six, seven, eight. You gotta just feel it out a little bit more. And so that has been probably my favorite part of being here is being able to introduce the students to something because. There's a Tyra Banks quote I love that's different is better than better. And sometimes when I, you know, my first thought was I'm going to this prestigious art school. They've had these people with MFAs and PhDs and theater and trading them. And what am I going to have to offer them that they haven't already been offered before? And that's, Something that I love for artists to take away, particularly BIPOC artists, is that we have something innately special. Even if you have a PhD in Shakespearean theater, you can't offer what I can offer. And that's what I've been loving about this experience because they haven't been able to do social dance. And there's things that I've had to teach them about even relaxing into a character and the characters that you play for Shakespeare, aren't the same characters that I want on this Caribbean island. And it's been great for me to reaffirm that. I have a skill, but it's also something that I hope that I'm able to share with other Bipoc artists is don't compare yourself to someone else. Tap into what's special about you, because you can always teach people something when you're leaning into what's special about yourself, and not comparing yourself, but tapping into your organic strengths, and then people can learn from that.

Rosanita:

Looking back from where you are now and everything that you've. Accomplished now, right in the arts and in the lives of not just the kids that you work with and the seniors that you've worked with, but the audience members as well. I'd say even the grant readers, because they haven't necessarily encountered the kind of programming that you do. How do you think 8 year old Emilio would feel about where he ended up?

Emilio:

Oh my gosh, I love that question so much. And yes, like you said, even the grant readers didn't know about it. We actually started a. Relationship with the scarab club because their executive director at the time was one of the grant readers for a grant we had applied for. And they were like, I loved reading about you guys. Can you come and do something at scarab club? So that sort of stuff happens all the time. I think eight year old me couldn't even, it's not something that I would have even thought about because I didn't even know that was something that existed. I didn't even know theater existed until college when I studied theater in college. So. 8 year old me would be like, first of all, what is theater? And second of all, how cool that you are doing this thing. And obviously I think 8 year old me would be a little bit more excited about like the fairy tale stuff and that element because that's what I was into as an 8 year old. Also, I think it would be so incredible to see the leadership position, to see the collaboration between artists, and then to see all of the different things that I grew up loving coming together. So, like, us, Leaning into books. Now we have a picture books versions of our, our plays that we have available now, and they're like a bridge scripts of the actual scripts we use, but just shortened and then have the pictures to correspond and then getting able to do music as well, which is something really exciting because music was, you know. Gonna be my major. That's what an eight year old me and 13 year old me would have wanted to be a songwriter. So getting to write songs for the organization that emphasize the stories that we're working on. I think all, all of that would have been incredible, but I, I do think the song element and the fairytale element would be most exciting for baby Emilio to look back at now.

Rosanita:

Looking back, is what you've created something that younger you would have been like, Mom, sign me up today.

Emilio:

Ah, yes. Or 13 year old. Oh yeah, or 13 year old me. So for the Our Voices, I forgot to mention that one of our students actually wrote a song. I think, yeah, that, that one's on YouTube too. The, the song that she wrote. And so we hired someone to make a beat for the song that she wrote and then we animated the song too. So I think actually 13 year old me would have wanted to do that version of Our Voices and write a song, you know, for a character. A theme song for a play. And if I was in Our Voices when I was 13, that, that would have been my role. I wouldn't have been the playwright, and I wouldn't have been the actor. But I would have said, Hey, you guys, I watch Nickelodeon shows, and they always start with a theme song. Or I watch Disney shows, and they always start with a theme song. Can I write a theme song for this? And so that's why I love that we're continuing to expand, because there's different ways that people can have a touchpoint with theater. And if I was a 13 year old, that would have actually been my touchpoint with theater, writing the theme song for the play. And, and then I would have through doing that would have learned more about theater and would have eventually switched to where I am now like a playwright. But yeah, I would have been so excited as a 13 year old to write the theme song for a play.

Rosanita:

You spend, I assume, a lot of time between the theater itself, your own projects. You know, not just your own productions, but also like visiting interlock in

Emilio:

guest artists. Yeah,

Rosanita:

the guest artists, the guest artists to interlock in. How or when do you find the time to just relax and take care of Emilio and only. Emilio.

Emilio:

That is the same question my parents ask me every week when we have our weekly check in phone call because my parents live in California. So every week they're like, are you taking time for yourself? Are you taking care of yourself? Are you having downtime? And that's something that I'm thinking more and more about last month. I went and had my first massage because I've never done that as just like doing self care stuff. But also I keep trying to explain to my family, to my brother also, So tries to look out for me too. I keep trying to explain to my family. Part of what I love about theater is I've gotten opportunities to do things that I wouldn't have been able to do. Like traveling can be really expensive, but when you're a playwright and different theater companies are doing your play and they're. Paying for you to go out and see the play and then you get paid on top of that. And then I, you know, sort of plan my vacations around that like, Oh, this theater company in Houston is flying me out to do my play. And then I'm going to go to rehearsals. That also means since I'm going to take off time from work to do that, then I'll have like, The whole night in the daytime to go exploring the city of Houston and I'll be paid to do it. So I'll have money to go, you know, travel around Houston. So I honestly, that's how I work in my vacations is there combined with, with work and being a playwright that gets invited to different cities. And then I'll be like, all right, this is my vacation time. And this is my fun downtime.

Rosanita:

I don't know if I'm channeling your parents right now, but I just want to say, well, that's great. And I'll take some time. That isn't, you know, at all involved with your craft and just do something else for the week. Right?

Emilio:

Was

Rosanita:

that channeling your mom and dad? Yes, they're trying to

Emilio:

get me to take an actual vacation, non theater related. And it's so funny because as we were planning this vacation. I was like, and this could be a great opportunity to do some research, to write a play, and they were like, no, no, you're missing the point, that's not the point. So I don't, I don't know what I'm going to learn, but I'm going to have to learn eventually to know work, know research. Just vacation.

Rosanita:

Yes. Now when you hear your parents voice in your head, my voice is going to be there to say, Emilio, you know, it's Friday night, right? Like, take some time off, go to a movie.

Emilio:

Yes, yes. I didn't do that. I need to find the movie theater and interlock it here. There's not as much here.

Rosanita:

I've really enjoyed talking with you, listening to everything that you've had to say. I've learned a lot, you know, way more than the internet stalking was able to give. And so I really want to thank you for coming on the show. And I also want to invite you to plug away as in, you know, where can we find. You, where can we find black and brown theater? What's happening next? All the good stuff.

Emilio:

Yes. Good stuff. Okay. So the best place to look up Black and Brown theater depends on how you like to surf the web. If you're a website person, we are blackandbrowntheater. org. If you are a social media person, like I am, we are at BNB theater on Instagram and Facebook. Just make sure you spell theater R E and not E R. And then our YouTube is Black and Brown theater. If you just search Black and Brown theater on YouTube. And our upcoming projects, we are going to be performing our adaptation of Rapunzel for the entire first grade population of Detroit public schools in March, which we're really looking forward to. That's our, one of our favorite programs, the passport program. So we get to perform for. 4, 000 students. And then we'll also be doing some other private school shows as well during that time since we'll already have the actors in the show going up. And then also speaking of Rapunzel, one thing that I'm really excited about is that the film version will be coming out soon, hopefully around that time in the spring. It's just, we're in post production now, just editing everything. We actually shot it last summer, but what was really exciting Really exciting about that is we had been doing this thing where we were filming the shows in the theater and just, you know, doing different camera angles to really give that TV multicam sitcom type vibe to it. But we actually had a little bit of trouble finding a set designer. All the set designers were booked last summer. And so we said, all right, we We, we take challenges and we make them work for us. And we said, all right, if we can't find the set designer who will build us a set in the theater, we're going to go find a castle in Michigan. We're going to go find a forest in Michigan and we're going to shoot it like a movie and it's going to look like a beautiful movie background for all of these. So we found a castle in Michigan actually in like Lansing area in

Rosanita:

Michigan.

Emilio:

Yes, it's a museum dedicated to a Michigan author who is the first author to sell a million books. And so he has a tiny little castle. It's very like Disney aesthetic to it, but it was, it was beautiful. It was perfect. I just heard search castles in Michigan on Google. And we found that and we're like, great. How much did we read this? And then it was cheaper than a set builder. I was like, this is cheaper than a set builder. Let's just do this. Let's do movies. And then we did a forest for one location. And then we use scarab club for the tower of Rapunzel. I actually think it was the best thing that can happen to us because it looks so much more visually stunning on the screen to actually be in a forest. So to actually have a castle behind you, as opposed to having a set designer, you know, paint a forest in the background. So I'm really, really excited about that film, which should be out hopefully this spring and we'll put it on YouTube so people can watch it directly from YouTube. And then our next official planning show won't be until winter, but I always say follow us on social media because we like to drop some surprises along the way and sometimes funding comes along the way and we don't have official show plan but someone says, Hey, we'll give you this money if you do a show and then we got to find the actors really quickly. So, if you're an actor, definitely follow us at BNB theater because things come up all the time and we always do different gigs and short projects as well.

Rosanita:

And for you, Emilio, separate from the Black and Brown theater right now, you are the guest artist at Interlochen and then what's after that?

Emilio:

Yeah, so right now, like you mentioned, focused on the guest artist thing. That'll be until March. And then during this time, I have a little bit of downtime too, but I'm actually using that because I got a grant through the University of Michigan, where I teach an intro to playwriting class in the fall to write a book called Everyone Can Write a Play. Okay. And it's just sort of a culmination of everything I've been teaching for all age ranges. What I've been teaching elementary students, what I've been teaching the college students at U of M, what I've been teaching the seniors through the Ipsy program. And really this idea that I've been teaching everyone how to write a play, no matter their age, no matter their reading level. Why don't I just make a book of this? And so I'm really excited for that book to come out because like I mentioned, baby Emilio loved reading because of his mom. And so I would think it was just. So cool to see a book with my name on it. So that's the project I'll be focused on. And then in the fall, I'll go back to teaching intro playwriting at U of M. And then from there, everything is, is up in the air of what happens. I've got a couple of plays that are being talked about and I, I just got the wild award for one of the plays that I wrote called God Kind of Looks Like Tupac. And there are a couple other companies looking at that play. So we'll see if those land. If they do land, you'll know from my Instagram page,@emiliowritesplays, where to see those productions if they do work out in 2023 or 2024.

Rosanita:

Again, thank you for coming on to the show.

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Rosanita Ratcliff

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